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Religion

Hitler and the Nazis

I don’t normally go in for all the claptrap about Hitler being an atheist.  Anyone who says that is painfully ignorant.  Ignorant to the point that it’s probably not worth talking with them.  A two minute Google search is all you need to find volumes of proof that the Nazi regime was founded on Christian mythology, and that Hitler was a professing Christian.   But seriously, if someone hasn’t read enough by high school to know all of this, can we expect them to figure it out?

Maybe.  This is a great video with only a few words to read.  There’s neato music, and pictures.  Easy stuff for the educationally challenged to absorb.  And it’s short, so even people with Bumpersticker-itis can watch the whole thing.

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Discussion

16 thoughts on “Hitler and the Nazis

  1. Hamby,

    You allude and state that the atrocities were done on christian principles. I can many scriptures of Jesus advocating love your neighbors, but I find no evidence of Jesus Christ ever advocating the extermination of all Jews. So perhaps you can enlighten me with the relevant scripture that supports your premise.

    or does your video simply shows what happens when there is no seperation of church and state and you actually have no proof of Jesus Christ advocating hate crimes as a christian principle for the church…

    .

    Posted by PG | June 22, 2010, 2:09 pm
  2. PG, here’s where the rubber meets the road, buddy. Quote me saying that the Nazi regime was founded on Christian principles.

    Also, it’s not my video. Look at the youtube page and you’ll see that.

    Ordinarily, I would just ignore you, but I’m waiting on some rice to finish steaming, so I’ll humor you, even though it’ll have the same effect as praying to God — none. There is no such thing as The One True Set of Christian Principles. I can quote Jesus saying that you have to hate your family to be a good disciple. I can quote Paul saying that women should be silent in church and not cut their hair. Someone else can point out that Jesus was compassionate and advocating loving others. There’s no right answer because gee golly whiz… the Bible is internally contradictory, vague, and can be interpreted to say just about anything you like.

    That’s one of the worst problems with Christian MYTHOLOGY and traditions. (See? It’s called reading comprehension, PG. Look into it.) When the prevailing cultural forces (read: Anti-semitism, nationalism, racism) are paired with a completely malleable religious ideology, it can lead to horrifying results. Hitler and the Nazis identified as Christians. That means they were Christians. There is no patent on “The One True Christianity,” and no way to say for sure that Hitler was wrong. Maybe he and the Nazis were the only people in history who have gotten God right. Maybe God’s whole purpose in the universe was to kill lots of Jews. God might be a real son-of-a-bitch who set all of history in motion. Maybe he worked through Richard Wagner to write Ride of the Valkyries and lots of anti-semitic literature. Maybe he knew Hitler would love it.

    Maybe not. But it doesn’t matter. Hitler was a Christian. He was just a variety of Christian that a lot of other Christians find objectionable.

    Posted by hambydammit | June 22, 2010, 2:28 pm
  3. Nice post. Why is it that Christian’s want to push their crazies out of the religion, while other religions are decried because of theirs?

    Perhaps another fun topic: How many serial killers or serial X (insert violent crime of choice) were “Christian”? Oh wait, that one has been covered recently in a horrible way…

    Posted by Alex Hardman | June 23, 2010, 3:18 am
  4. Hitler was a Christian. He was just a variety of Christian that a lot of other Christians find objectionable.

    Well, a lot of *current* Christians find Hitler objectionable. If he hadn’t been long dead, Hitler’s fellow German Martin Luther would have supported Hitler’s “Final Solution” enthusiastically – and there were a great many German Lutheran and Catholic contemporaries of Hitler who supported the Nazis as well. Plus, there’s the whole thing where the Pope at the time (Pius XII) was pretty damned anti-semitic himself: He didn’t wholeheartedly support the Third Reich, but arguably he didn’t do nearly as much to oppose the Holocaust as he could and should have. Oh, and Pius XII and the Catholic hierarchy under his direction has been definitively and repeatedly documented as having enacted a policy of preventing Jewish families from reclaiming children rescued from the Holocaust. Because, you know, those children had been saved not just from death, but from being filthy Jews, and therefore were objectively better off (in the eyes of the Church).

    But according to PG, anti-Semitism has NOTHING WHATSOEVER TO DO WITH CHRISTIANITY, AND NEVER HAS AND NEVER WILL, because Rebbi Yeshua himself isn’t quoted directly in the New Testament as saying anything directly anti-Semitic. WTF? Firstly, Hambydammit is perfectly right to point out that there is no One True Christianity, for all the reasons he said. But more than that, by the definition you seem to be going by, PG, there are NO Christians in the world because none of them limit themselves exclusively to what Jesus is quoted as saying in the New Testament without interpretation or extrapolation or addition or editing (even if those quotes weren’t just invented in the first place, which they clearly were).

    More to the point, Hambydammit did not, as you accuse PG,
    “allude and state that the atrocities were done on christian principles.” He stated – quite clearly and absolutely correctly – that everyone who has ever claimed that Hitler was an atheist rather than a theist (and not only a theist in general, but a self-proclaimed Christian) is either willfully ignorant of history or is just a fucking liar. The video makes the same point, just as clearly. And since you either missed that superbly clear point or deliberately ignored the point despite its clarity, you too are either willfully ignorant or a fucking liar – probably both.

    But since you’re so monumentally bad at it – that is, you’re a bad liar and you parade your ignorance with such clumsy boldness – keep it up! Like I said before, your every “contribution” around here is a massive ‘own goal’ against your own side.

    Posted by G Felis | June 23, 2010, 3:19 am
  5. Like most political movements in the industralized world over the last few centuries, Nazism was essentially secular. Nazi beliefs were a mishmash from a variety of sources, like occultism. “Aryan” came from some 19th-cy. occultists’ theories of prehistory, and as JP Mallory noted, some of the Nazis’ victims had better claim to that title than most Nazis themselves.

    As to Christianity, the Nazi platform talked approvingly about “positive Christianity”, and some Nazis believed that Jesus Christ was a noble Nordic who was persecuted by the Jews. Some Nazis were sort-of-neopagans, like Alfred Rosenberg, who wanted to set up some “National Reich Church” with Adolf Hitler as its Messiah.

    I think that it’s telling that the Catholic Church never excommunicated Nazi leaders, not even Hitler himself, though they were willing to excommunicate Communists. When one considers how the Nazis treated France and Poland and Czechoslovakia, the Catholic leaders reacted with remarkable equanimity.

    Posted by Loren Petrich | June 23, 2010, 7:07 am
  6. Hamby,

    So now you attermpt to disclaim the video as not being the views held by the blogger posting the video.

    Real smart of you Hamby. Thats called being intillectually dishonest!

    Look it up.

    While your at it perhaps you can more prudently research a topic before you blog it.

    Why? because you continually parrot the Atheist party line which indicates that you cant distinguish Atheist propaganda from reasoning.

    Example:
    Scholars agree that Hitler simply manipulated the public, the churches, as well as their congrEgation, for his own agenda.

    Here are some Hitler quotes that I pulled off the internet..

    The book Hitler’s Secret Conversations 1941-1944 published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc.first edition, 1953, contains definitive proof of Hitler’s real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, _Hitler’s Table Talk 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

    All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

    Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
    National Socialism and religion cannot exist together…. The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity’s illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity…. Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

    10th October, 1941, midday:
    Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

    14th October, 1941, midday:
    The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death…. When understanding of the universe has become widespread… Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity…. Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity…. And that’s why someday its structure will collapse…. …the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little…. Christianity the liar…. We’ll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

    19th October, 1941, night:
    The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

    21st October, 1941, midday:
    Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer…. The decisive falsification of Jesus’ doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work… for the purposes of personal exploitation…. Didn’t the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it’s in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

    13th December, 1941, midnight:
    Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery…. …. When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let’s be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

    14th December, 1941, midday:
    Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don’t believe the thing’s possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself…. Pure Christianity– the Christianity of the catacombs– is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

    9th April, 1942, dinner:
    There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

    27th February, 1942, midday:
    It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors– but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity…. My regret will have been that I couldn’t… behold .” (p 278)

    .

    Posted by PG | June 24, 2010, 12:48 am
  7. The extermination of religion as quoted by Hitler is a Atheist concept, No?

    Posted by PG | June 24, 2010, 12:51 am
  8. No.

    Posted by hambydammit | June 24, 2010, 1:11 am
  9. PG, I’m willing to bet that those quotes came from Martin Bormann, who was actually an atheist and said the Nazisim is incompatiable with Christianity.

    In fact, I KNOW those are from Bormann, because you got these from the table talks, which Bormann edited heavily.

    Anyway, I think all this about who is an atheist or not is irrelevant and dangerous thought train.

    As I’ve said many, many times, these kinds of bickerings get in the way of the root of the problem.

    After all, how can you say Hitler wouldn’t have done it if he was Christian when he was?

    How can you say it wouldn’t have happened if the Nazis weren’t Christian when they had atheists such as Bormann in their ranks?

    You see how this can quickly get off track to grade 4 level arguments?

    Hitler/Stalin/Pol Pot whatever, it doesn’t matter whether they were Theists or atheists and all this pinning the cause on the atrocious leader is getting very old, and very dangerous.

    Posted by cptpineapple | June 24, 2010, 2:24 pm
  10. Alison, the only comment I will make in response to that is that as far as I can tell, every leader anyone has mentioned who has committed atrocities against humanity subscribed to an ideological position which either denied, repressed, or claimed immunity from rational inquiry. In that respect, I criticize them all. In fact… Gee.. I’ve said this at least a hundred times… That’s the aspect of religion I object to. Show me a religion that is completely open and responsive to rational inquiry and I’ll show you… GEE WHIZ… a moral philosophy based on science and reason devoid of blind faith.

    Posted by hambydammit | June 24, 2010, 2:58 pm
  11. Hamby, I think the reason we talk past each other is because of you are making broad claims, while I try to make narrow ones.

    You simply saying that critical thinking is better than it’s negation is redunent and true. It’s like saying that the car wouldn’t have hit that tree if it didn’t hit that tree. Well, duh but that’s just an observation, not an actual solution to the problem.

    While I do think that your broad views of rationality vs irrationality is true, I think it’s TOO broad and I think you try to keep it that way so when someone challenges one of your observations against religion and asks for empirical evidence you can throw the “But it’s a broad statement of rationality!’ card.

    Posted by cptpineapple | June 24, 2010, 5:51 pm
  12. So your objection is that my broad statement is too true to argue with? I accept that criticism.

    Posted by hambydammit | June 25, 2010, 3:56 am
  13. No, it’s that it’s too broad to produce anything meaninful from it.

    You want to cut down on irrationality right? You have to get more narrow than people who think irrationally, think irrationally.

    It’s like saying that in order to cut down on drunk driving, we have to know that sober driving is better. Pretty much everyone knows that drunk driving is bad, but it still happens a lot and simply saying drunk driving is bad isn’t enough.

    Posted by cptpineapple | June 26, 2010, 8:43 pm
  14. Alison, you’re the only person I know who thinks I want to “cut down on irrationality.” That’s YOUR CLAIM, and it’s too broad to have any meaning for me. I target one very specific form of irrationality — the acceptance and implementation of a worldview based on the belief that some things DO NOT REQUIRE PROOF. I have always accepted and even highlighted the fact that this is a very specific kind of irrationality, and does not presume to cure the many other irrational beliefs and behaviors exhibited by people with differing worldviews, including atheism and rational materialism.

    So… try again to tell me. What is your point?

    Posted by hambydammit | June 26, 2010, 9:45 pm
  15. My point is that you are providing non-answers to questions.

    You say that we should demand proof for our claims [on a side note this is the reason I get frustrated when you blow off my demands for proof of your claims about religion] which is all well and good, but it seems to me you have the handwaving approach that this brand of irrationality will magically disappear when you say how bad it is.

    I also find it odd that you don’t pay more attention on the irrationalities of the people who hold the atheist or rational materialist views. In my humble opinion, they could use some more rationality as well.

    Posted by cptpineapple | June 30, 2010, 8:43 pm
  16. In other words Hamby what IS your approach to reducing faith based thinking? I’m sure you’ll say more critical thinking taught at an early age, but I just don’t think that’ll be enough seeing as you seem to measure the success by whether they believe in God or not, but that isn’t a good enough indicator that they child doesn’t have faith based beliefs.

    Posted by cptpineapple | June 30, 2010, 8:45 pm

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